
From deisenst@coin.org Wed Mar 21 11:26:08 2001
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:45:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "David D. Eisenstein" <deisenst@coin.org>
To: Jeff Brotemarkle <jbrotema@coin.org>
Cc: "Cheryl L. Hill" <cheryllhill@yahoo.com>,
    Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman <david_ackerman@yahoo.com>,
    Kelly Lasiter <kcl78@yahoo.com>,
    Lucrecia Culberson <lculbe6495@aol.com>,
    "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" <RevRhy@aol.com>, Val Hinshaw <vhinshaw@coin.org>
Subject: Re: A definition of religion



On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Jeff Brotemarkle wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, David D. Eisenstein wrote:
> 
> > Cheryl, (and Habadashers):
> > 
> > Earlier this evening we were speaking of the definition of the word
> > "religion."  Here is a fascinating definition I found from Noah Webster's
> > 1828 Dictionary, from website <http://www.christiantech.com/>:
> > 
> > It seems interesting that religion and ligament both come from some
> > similar roots -- both from ligo, "to bind."
> > 
> > ------------
> > 
> > 
> > 4. Any system of faith and worship.  In this sense, religion comprehends
> > the belief and worship of pagans and Mohammedans, as well as of
> > christians; any religion consisting in the belief of a superior power or
> > powers governing the world, and in the worship of such power or powers. 
> > Thus we speak of the religion of the Turks, of the Hindoos, of the
> > Indians, &c.  as well as of the christian religion. We speak of false
> > religion, as well as of true religion.
> > 
> > 
>     Ah, yes!  Those 19th century old-timers knew the truth, but instead
> of setting them free, it bound them to Christianity!

Please elucidate, Jeff.  What is the truth that sets one free?

Free, incidentally, from what?  For what?

                        -Dave

ps:  Why do I keep sensing a whip in your written voice in recent notes
when you write with regards to Christianity?  Are such violent and
condescending tones (as I imagine sensing) in your messages really as
violent and condescending to others on this list as they seem to me?  It
feels like you are exercising resentment.  And scarcely sounds much like
the gentle, kindly, eclectic Jeff Brotemarkle I have grown to know and
love.

I hear you having said something profound or very interesting many times
over the years in this Habadasher group, followed by, "... but of course,
you cannot say (this or that) in a Christian church."  I keep sensing that
you have felt put-down or stifled or ignored or unlistened-to (or even
felt persecuted?) by some people or environments you have been in, perhaps
even those that call themselves mainstream Christian.  It has indeed been
my experience that you cannot say some certain things to certain people,
and expect to receive admiration or respect in return.  This is
particularly true with regards to people with strong religious beliefs,
say, in conservative church environments.

Please bear in mind, Jeff, that you have a lot of people on this
Habadasher Soup list who have deep and honorable commitments to their
relationships with Jesus Christ and/or their God Yahweh.  At least they
feel their commitments honorable.  Trashing their savior and master (or
their particular name they have for their religion, which is reminescent
of the name of their savior and master) may not serve you well here, if
you are interested in peaceful and kindly and loving responses.  It's not,
I think, that any Christians here are interested in being hypocrites by
returning any eyes for eyes or teeth for teeth; it's just a fact that in
doing the work of putting down (or at least *appearing* to put down) 
others' spiritual beliefs, you may be hurting them and serving a purpose
that is very hard for me to view as edifying, uplifting, or educating; but
rather serving a purpose that exposes prejudices or supremist leanings. 

I really cannot find helpful or enlightening the practice of jeeringly
deriding ideas or doctrines that one does not believe in when such
derisions appear to exist primarily for puffing up one's own.  But I am
beginning to become accustomed to hearing the tone of the jeer in your
writing.  Is this really the tone you are intending to convey?

Bear in mind that it is my opinion that whenever I listen to Jay Lenno on
the tonight show, the tone of humor I sense from him is also jeeringly
derisive; and that is why I seldom watch that show, that kind of tone
feels violent to me.

Even so, I think our group exists to hear these kinds of things.  In our
group, as in life, none of us have to be "nicey-nice" all of the time.  We
are here to be human and expose our humannesses to one-another.  And,
perhaps from time-to-time, even piss each other off.  Because, as my
Doctor tells me, the old Chinese saying goes, "No burn, no earn, which we
optimistic Americans say as 'No pain, no gain.'"

(At first I thought he was saying, "No burn, no urn."  *shudder*).

Please let us know if you are truly doing ok, Jeff?  I am really concerned
by the tone of some recent messages that all may not be well with you.  If
so, is there anything I or we can do to be of help?

		With love,
		Your friend,
		David

